Leading Voices

Wells Fargo Corporate & Investment Banking Leading Voices podcastOur clients think big, and so do we.  

In our "Leading Voices" podcast series, our leaders will share deep expertise across corporate banking, investment banking, fixed income, equities, and commercial real estate, while exploring timely trends, actionable insights, and strategic opportunities to help power your business into a better, more inspired, and equitable future.

We'll focus on highlighting innovative ways visionary clients are embracing new strategies and solutions to elevate their business growth, financial performance, and ability to deliver on long-term outcomes.

Find us on Spotify under Wells Fargo Leading Voices.

Episode 2: Diverse segments: A conversation with Danielle Squires and Kristy Fercho

In this episode, join Danielle Squires, Head of Diverse Segments for Corporate and Investment Banking and her first guest Kristy Fercho, Head of Diverse Segments, Representation and Inclusion for Wells Fargo as they discuss how we work with diverse owned, led and minority depository institutions to help serve their needs.

Listen to episode 2

Audio: Episode 2

Transcript: Episode 2

This is Leading Voices, a Wells Fargo podcast. Our clients think big, and so do we. And our Leading Voices Series, our leaders will share deep expertise across corporate banking, investment banking, fixed income, equities and commercial real estate while exploring the timely trends, actionable insights and strategic opportunities to help power your business into a better, more inspired and equitable future. With a focus on highlighting innovative ways, industry leaders and visionary clients are embracing new, sustainable strategies and solutions to navigate change, elevate their business growth and deliver on long term outcomes.

>> Danielle Squires:
Hi, I'm Danielle Squires, head of diverse segments for corporate and investment banking at Wells Fargo. Joining me today is Kristy Fercho, Head of Diverse Segments, Representation and Inclusion at Wells Fargo. And today, we're going to be discussing what our team does and how we work with diverse owned and diverse led companies and minority depository institutions, or MDIs, to help serve the diverse needs of all our clients.  All right. Let's get started. Kristy, thanks for being here today. And you, as we just said, are head of diverse segments, representation and inclusion across all of Wells Fargo. Can you start by summarizing what your role entails and more specifically, how Wells Fargo thinks about diverse segments as a company and why this is absolutely critical to the work that we do?

>> Kristy Fercho:
Yes, thanks Danielle. And first, let me just say thank you for inviting me to be part of this with you today. So, yes, diverse segments, representation and inclusion, and it is a mouthful as it relates to a title, but each word was very specifically chosen. So the diverse segments part of this really focuses on our diverse customer segments and wanting to make sure that we are in a position to better serve and grow the business that we have with our diverse customer segments. And you think like diverse segments, people often think about underserved or the   unbanked. And for us though, in financial services, it really represents this full spectrum all the way from unbanked and low to moderate income all the way up to ultra-high net worth. And the opportunities that exist in each one of our businesses. Across each one of those dimensions. The representation and inclusion is what you would think about when you think about more classic DE&I at companies. The representation really is wanting to make sure that we look like America at every level of the bank from kind of the entry level all the way up to the board, and that we are managing the business with that diverse mindset at all levels of the company. And then the inclusion is how does it all come together, really bringing the best of all of these diverse mindsets and perspectives and experiences to create better products and solutions in service of these diverse customer segments. And so, as we really think about kind of those three pillars, they really do come together for us very well. This is opportunity that you think about. And when you say, ‘Why is this important to Wells Fargo?’ It really is. When we look down the road and we think about what the U.S. population is going to look like, it is projected that the population will be more racially and ethnically diverse as the non-Hispanic white population continues to shrink. And in fact, by 2045, you'll actually see that the U.S. is majority minority. And so that business proposition in terms of the changing demographic in the country is really, really powerful. But when you look at what's actually happening there, right, the economic value of let's just focus on Hispanics, which is the fastest growing population that we have, if you were to aggregate all that economic value, Hispanics, the GDP of them would be $2.8 trillion, which would be like the fifth largest country. If you think of minority owned businesses, right, with annual sales of $1.5 trillion and growing and certainly the economic value of this minimum of $340 billion in wealth opportunity that is coming from Black and African American households, the value prop is pretty clear around the changing demographics and how important it is for Wells Fargo to be able to meet the needs of those customers. And so it's not this short term fix that we were looking to do. It really is this long-term commitment that we have as a company but really being intentional about what are the actions that we need to take. And I don't have to tell that to you, Danielle, you're actually on the front line of that bringing this to life every day within CIB.  And so I would love for you to just share with the audience what does a diverse segment inside of the corporate investment bank, does that look like and how are you approaching the work on a day to day basis? 

>> Danielle Squires:
I appreciate that, Kristy, and especially your description of diverse segments, representation and inclusion is really holistic and encompassing, and that's, that's really important. And it's specifically important for us in the corporate and investment bank as we take a look at it as to how can we help really grow and maximize positive outcomes for our diverse clients and communities. And we do that by granting greater access to the capital markets, creating connections where there aren't any, and trying to fill product gaps that are in the market. We believe wholeheartedly that deepening relationships are core to our business. As we've said it before, building trust with our clients, our partners, our communities. We want to grow our companies and we want to really do that across the entire financial ecosystem. And so, we look at it not just on, you know, diverse, owned and diverse led companies themselves, but how can we grow and diversify what you might consider sort of big, large, traditionally non-diverse leadership teams and large public companies? How can we help them, one, achieve their DE&I strategy and two, really maximize the work they do with diverse constituencies as well? And some of the things that we've done that I think folks could find interesting would be the work that we've done with diverse broker dealers and underwriters. And specifically, this is a contingent of fantastic market participants that just haven't had the ability, if you will, from a connectivity perspective, to play a part in the capital markets, the equity capital markets, the fixed income capital markets, the bonds really across that spectrum of debt and capital raising. They've got a great distribution network but haven't always been known to the companies and corporations who are out there issuing the bonds. And guess what? We know that, right? We both know the diverse broker dealers and underwriters, and we're both helping those companies issue their bonds. And so, we feel that it's important to connect those to play a part in really elevating the diverse broker dealers, underwriters, given the strength of their own financial capacities and the things that they can do, how can we bring that out to our clients? It helps our clients and it helps the diverse broker dealers. It helps us back at Wells Fargo. Really, this is the purpose, I think, of what we want to do throughout all of our diverse segments groups, but specifically in the corporate and investment bank. We'd love to see a paradigm shift in the market. I think too often we hear folks say that diverse business is philanthropic and solely morally good, but we know and we believe that you pointed out the case, and we believe that as well in the corporate investment bank, that diverse business is simply good business and it's a great business. And so for us, that's kind of sort of how we work and how we lead. And we do this through our fixed income markets. We do it through our real estate, our commercial real estate portfolio, and we do it in traditional investment banking both here and abroad. Just really there's a great opportunity to diversify business across the entire financial ecosystem. And that's what we're focusing on, which is why we're really excited about it, because there's a lot of work to do and we think we've got a lot of time to do this work. And I think one of the things that I talked about sort of creating those connections, partnership and engagement are really key pillars of the work that I do. And you've been instrumental in that. And one of the things that we've done lately together is be a part of the Black Business Leaders Summit that we recently hosted in New Orleans. And I really think that this is a great example of engagement and action. We brought 150 Black leaders from across all industries, from across the country to really sit and talk about where we can partner together, how we can build together, how we celebrated each other, too, Right? We took a moment to say the work that is getting done and how great it. Kristy, as we said, you were there with me on the ground. I'd love to also hear you talk a bit about what you saw and heard from our clients and your thought overall and how this engagement can help us all move this ball forward.

>> Kristy Fercho:
Well, one, it was an extraordinary experience and I think just the energy in the room was really palpable as I was describing it to someone, you know, kind of as senior Black leaders many of us spend a lot of time being the only one in the room. And I think the power of what was created at the Black Business Leaders Summit is there was a bunch of the only’s, right? And so all at once we were no longer the only’s is in the room. It was a group of all only's and the alignment and the common interest of what people want to achieve or that they were working on their own to be able to drive forward was really palpable. And, you know, the one thing that we know about this work is it can't be done alone. There is so much power in partnership and shared focus, and I think we really experience that at the Black Business Leadership Summit. I mean, sitting around the table for people and sharing ideas that individuals had about or things that they were working on those opportunities, it just became really clear that like, Oh, I'm working on that. Oh, you're doing that? Oh, I am too. Who do you know? And then the know you game and the opportunities really just came so clear as people then got excited about the opportunities to be able to work together, to be able to identify the common challenges that everybody was facing and then in saying, okay, how do we solve those together? Right? And really bringing that collective knowledge to the table to be able to advance it. But it also is this really intentional dialog and really deliberate dialog around how do we solve these problems. I think everyone knows kind of what the key issues and the problems were, but there was nobody sitting around to admire the problems. It really was how do we lean in and be able to do this work together? And I think that's what was most exciting for me coming out of it. It wasn't only just the acknowledgment of partnership and the engagement, but the creativity and the idea generation that came from if we partnered together, we could advance this more quickly. I think that's really what Wells Fargo is trying to do in this space, is we're trying to say, can we bring a group of people together as the convener, people that have common shared goals and interests, and can we identify a handful of ideas that we could really move forward in a meaningful way with Wells Fargo leveraging our resources and our distribution network across the different lines of business and across the country to be able to solve these problems. And so I think it was a tremendous opportunity to have a positive impact on the communities where we all work and live and play. And it was just really exciting to see all of that come together. And I can't wait to see the outcomes that actually get produced as a result of it. So it was an exceptional experience for me for sure. But, you know, we're just not talking about the fact that it was a great experience in a great location for a couple of days. But I really do think about and as I said Danielle, the business opportunity that gets created going forward. And so I'd be great to hear you talk a little bit about how these engagements really drive business results from Wells Fargo.

>> Danielle Squires:
Yeah, and I think it kind of brings us back to the idea that diverse business is good business. 

>> Kristy Fercho:
Sure.

>> Danielle Squires:
And you talked about that. We're not just talking, but we are, we’re sitting there, we're analyzing, we're dissecting, and we're really feeding off, I think, the energy and the positivity in the room with thoughts on what solutions can be and to go out and drive them. I always say this isn't a one bank solution. This isn't a one person, a one company solution. What took hundreds of years to really disenfranchise people and systematically, it's not going to be solved by one bank or one person over the next couple of months. But really to be very deliberate, very on top of it and very forward looking and forward thinking over the next several years and paying attention to every spot that's out there where we can actually do better and do stuff together. And I think that's really what's important. And as you talk about driving business, right, the things that we think of are where are there real estate opportunities in the zones that need development and need investment and how can we bring groups of people together to really do that together? Where are the opportunities, where there are capital raising needs and ideas, and how can we bring those who have capital together with those who need capital to get it right? That's actually how businesses grow and develop by having right access to capital, having the right ideas and the right support behind them. And so, Wells Fargo can be a part all along the way, all three of those. But again, if we can bring more people along, we can grow faster and grow bigger together. And I think that's pretty big. So from us, from a business perspective, we look at how many financing opportunities are there at that table, right, that we can help be a part of as well. How many companies realize that they can grow by, by purchasing another company that's out there? Maybe they met them there or maybe they have an idea from there from out of it. How can we help them and guide them through that process and be value add there? You know, some of the other things I think about too are how far and wide can this message go? And by not limiting this to one industry, or not limiting this to sort of one type of group or one geographic location. What we've also done to spread the word wide and far, right?

One of the things I said at that conference I think is really important that we talk about all the time is the things that we discuss in these inner circles or these meetingsor these groups to move forward. You know, I think I said something like what happens in New Orleans doesn't stay in New Orleans. It’s not Las Vegas, right? We kind of move things forward and we've got to do more conversations like this. So, if there's even somebody listening today who says, you know, I have a great idea, great. We want to hear that idea. We want to know what we can do together. And so to me, that's what driving business forward looks like. It's creating opportunities and places where people can bring ideas to us or we can bring ideas to them. And there's some sort of business driving opportunity going forward that we do together and bring other and more people in.

>> Kristy Fercho:
Yeah, and you said something critical there, which I think is really important for people to hear. When you think about the large banks or financial institutions, I think most people probably think about, oh, we're in competition. And while that may be true in a lot of areas, it is not true in this area. And I love how you captured, you know, the complexity of this issue really does require us to all work together to bring this forward. So, this is a space where collaboration and cooperation actually is in all of our mutual shared interests. If somebody has got a great idea, let's share it so we can build on it and expand on it. And I think that's how we think about this work at Wells Fargo, which is people are out doing great things all over this country. And, and as we're looking at it, we're saying, where can we partner and engage to be able to add value so that the level of success achieved is greater because of our involvement. And that's a little bit of the measuring stick that we're going to hold ourselves accountable to, which is did we make it better by engaging and involving and could we then grow this? And so that level of cooperation is, I think, really important in this work. No one can do it alone. 

>> Danielle Squires:
Yeah, it actually makes me think of one other thing that we talked about and that we continue to think is a critical part. It's we’re moving and I mentioned this in the beginning, the minority depository institutions specifically there are 20 Black owned banks in the United States. Now, obviously there were more before, but only 20 now. And while we've played at Wells Fargo, in part in helping to grow and maximize their efforts and their positive work through deposits, through assistance, through guidance, through equity investments, $50 million across 13, I have to say there's more to do and there's more that we can do and there's more that other banks can do and more that other companies can do with placing deposits in them as well and helping them grow. They serve a tremendous community team and they serve a group of folks across the United States who need their services and need their bank. Again, you said it. It's not a competition in that respect. Right. I will say that I look forward to the day where we are 30, 40 years from now, and maybe this becomes a larger competition to get all this done with all these banks. But the point is, right now, it isn’t. Right now we all need to be in this and doing that work, like you said. And so, Kristy, also one of the greatest things I think, about our Black Business Leaders Summit is, again, this wasn't sort of corporate investment banking specific, right? This included Ruth Jackson, from our commercial bank, who was in conversation with Wole Coaxum from MoCaFi. Right. An amazing company, diverse owned company, doing business with governments out there, one that we've invested in and one that we want to see continue to grow. In addition to that, had the opportunity to speak on Bloomberg Radio with Jon Weiss, who's the head of our Corporate and Investment Bank and your peer on the Wells Fargo Operating Committee. It's just truly coming together and understanding that together we can push all of this forward when we work together to do it. And then the other thing I'd mention as I continue to talk about our minority depository institutions, Todd McDonald, who's president of Liberty Bank, Right. One of the oldest and the largest Black owned MDI that's out there and based in New Orleans, and he was in conversation with Nicole Elam, who's president of the National Bankers Association and CEO there, and the National Bankers Association, as you know. But maybe many of our listeners may not know is the trade organization for all the MDIs, of which there are 144. So to have them in conversation with the American public on Bloomberg Radio with well over a million listeners really, I think broadened the horizon and the reach of our MDIs. And so these are the things that I think were so wonderful to accomplish through Black Business Leaders Summit. And it was our inaugural summit, which, you know, as you said before, from an excitement perspective, I think it only gets bigger and better from here. So I'm just so happy that those participants can play a really large part of the success and hopefully does tremendously well for their businesses as well. 

>> Kristy Fercho:
Yeah, and I couldn't agree more Danielle. And what was powerful for me as well is, you know, the power of Bloomberg being there, it was a microcosm of the rooms that, you know, are happening all over this country, right. People coming together and convening to really solve business issues and the Bloomberg interviews just gave people outside of the Black Business Summit visibility into the conversations that are happening in this space. And when you talk about the spectrum for Wells Fargo, and I think that really is important, we talk about this access across the entire continuum from unbanked all the way up to ultrahigh net worth and from small mom and pop small business all the way up to large corporate banks. I mean, you had Dave Steward in the room, right, the largest privately held Black business in the country with Worldwide Technologies and the conversation and insight about how he started and really grew that business, because there was a lot of people in that room that are thinking about how do I get from being, you know, $5 million to $10 million and $10 million to $25 million, $25 million to $100 million, And you have Dave there sitting I think I'll do $20 billion this year in revenue. It's pretty powerful and you certainly can't leave the conversation without talking about the fireside chat that I had the opportunity to facilitate with Chairman T.D. Jakes and the work that we're doing with our disruptive partnership with the T.D. Jakes Enterprises and really the potential to really reach into these communities. And I think, again, going back to this theme about partnership and engagement, the power of being able to have folks who are so plugged in and entrenched and really trusted advisor and source like a T.D. Jakes, and to be able to be at the table and in conversation with him about what are the needs of the community, how do we earn the trust, how do we provide access when we show up with a product or a solution? How do we ensure that they actually trust that we're going to do the right thing in the communities? And that's really, I think, the power of the conversation that got forged at the Black Business Leaders Summit. But also it really is the start of conversations that will continue long after New Orleans. 

>>  Danielle Squires:
I have to tell you, Kristy, this was a really, really incredible conversation and really just the start, as you said, it's one where we have to continue and have to continue to make progress. You talked about it. We're committed to advancing diversity, equity and inclusion by helping ensure all people across our workforce, our communities, our partners and our clients feel valued and respected, have equal access to resources, services, products and opportunities to succeed. We want to be at the forefront of it. We want to partner with people to get it done. So I have to thank you so much for joining me today. And for our listeners, please stay tuned for more conversations from our diverse segments leaders as well in the coming weeks and months. As community and client leaders, we are here to serve you and we are here to work with you. So we thank you very much for listening today.

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Episode 1: Creating value with sustainable strategies and solutions

In this podcast episode, our Sustainable Finance and Advisory team explores top new trends, insights, and examples of how sustainability has become ‘value creating’ in the last few years.  And shares Wells Fargo's on-going commitment and role in supporting our clients as they go down some of their strategic journeys around sustainability.

Listen to episode 1

Audio: Episode 1

Transcript: Episode 1

>> Intro:

This is Leading Voices, a Wells Fargo podcast. Our clients think big, and so do we.  In our Leading Voices series, our leaders will share deep expertise across corporate banking, investment banking, fixed income, equities, and commercial real estate, while exploring the timely trends, actionable insights, and strategic opportunities to help power your business into a better, more inspired, and equitable future. With a focus on highlighting innovative ways industry leaders and visionary clients are embracing new sustainable strategies and solutions to navigate change, elevate their business growth, and deliver on long-term outcomes.

>> Geneviève Piché:

A few years ago, all we were talking about were green bonds. And that’s all there was. And now we are really elevating the dialog. 

>> Piché:
Welcome to Wells Fargo's Corporate and Investment Banking's Leading Voices podcast. This is our very first podcast, and I am super excited to be here with you. My name is Geneviève Piché. I lead the Sustainable Finance and Advisory Group. And I am joined here by David Szmigielski on our team. Hi, David. 

>> David Szmigielski:
Hi, Geneviève, glad to be here in Charlotte with you. It's such a sunny day. It’s beautiful out. 

>> Piché:
Thank you so much for coming from New York this morning. New Jersey, actually your home state. There is something really quirky that we were just talking about before we started, which is that you really love swamps. 

>> Szmigielski:
I really am a wetlands super fan, and I try to do my part in restoring our local ecosystems. As you pointed out, I live in New Jersey and work in New York. There's quite a bit of tidal and estuary ecosystems out there. And when I'm not kind of poking around in the muck, I'm just spending time there with my family and Geneviève, I know you're a huge fan of the national parks, so that's pretty similar. 

>> Piché:
It is, yes. Huge fan of the national parks and it's something that we've been doing for a long time. And now we have an eight-year-old son and do the junior Ranger programs and have a great time. So I think it makes us very well-suited to the work that we, do, aside from the fact that we're also bankers. So as we prepared for this podcast it really made me think of a quote from Coca-Cola's CEO, James Quincey, and he said this at a dinner of fellow CEOs earlier this year. And he said, It seems like ESG has become a toxic topic, a toxic acronym. And he said that may very well be and I will stop using it. And I'm paraphrasing, by the way, but he also said the idea that I want to be water positive, that I want to have a circular economy on my packaging, that I want to grow our business with less sugar are all things that are good for business. Call it what you want, but they are value creating and I think that is such an important topic, which is what we want to talk about here today, which is sustainability strategies are value creating. In your client engagement, David, do you see this topic coming up? 

>> Szmigielski:
Absolutely Geneviève. This is a huge keystone point in all of our engagements with our client base. A great opportunity or example of this is all of the waste heat out there in industrial processes. This is a by-product and it is an opportunity to capture that heat to generate additional electricity or additional power or additional production. And it's one that is untapped largely. And here is a great example of achieving gains not only in energy efficiency, operational efficiency, financial savings, saving on your electricity bill ultimately, but also satisfying environmental gains, reduction of emissions and the like as well. 

>> Piché:
Right. And a lot of these initiatives that you've just mentioned are reducing cost for companies. They are creating margin expansion. They are attracting new customers. They are driving valuation, and all of these things are better understood now than they ever were before. Five years ago, we were not having these conversations and as a result, we as a bank are having to up-tier and improve the type of engagement that we have because our clients are more sophisticated. And I want to ask you a little bit about some of the analytical work that we're doing to support our clients. 

>> Szmigielski:
Yeah. So, you know, a really great example of this type of analytical work that tries to demonstrate the value not only on the financial side, but also what are those additionalities from an environmental and social perspective is work that we're doing with our client base around their fleet electrification. So some of our clients have large corporate fleets. They might be simple vehicles that just get employees from site A to site B. To make client calls to visit other offices. Also more heavy duty infrastructure, bucket trucks and trailers and tractors and the like. How do you actually address that entire fleet as that fleet ages as that fleet needs to be replaced? And how do you do it in a way that satisfies multiple aims, not only those that are related to the energy efficiency and the fuel economy of those underlying vehicles, but also satisfying social and environmental gains all in one discussion. And so what we've developed is a tool to engage clients around the operational savings, the CapEx associated with replacement of the fleet, the life expectancy of the underlying vehicles, etc.. But also what are the emission savings associated with electrifying a fleet and how do those tie to our clients emissions and sustainability metrics? And what does this mean for our clients employee base for example, what are some of the unquantifiable but very tangible benefits to employee health and safety, as well as employee engagement at the worksite and how does this impact communities? We have really tangible examples of utility clients, for example, being able to operate longer in the communities that they serve because the vehicles are quieter. 

>> Piché:
It's so interesting what you're describing because I think when we had undertaken our very first work in sustainability, we formed this group three years ago, we were looking at value creation from an equity valuation standpoint. And we found it very hard to find, and that's because equity values incorporate so many different facets that are difficult to isolate to a specific sustainability initiative. But what we have found and this what you’re describing here is that it has very tangible benefits for cash flow. And when you describe the model that you're talking about here, the methodology, you’re really talking about a CapEx spend that results in OpEx reductions in time. So we can actually start to identify a return on investment, which I think is really the way to be thinking about this going forward. And we can talk about electrification of fleets, which won a selection by the White House. So congratulations to you, David, for their EV acceleration challenge. So we're super proud of that. But that's just one form of green expenditures and CapEx. There are so many more. In the real estate space, upgrades of appliances or the installation of solar panels. And when you combine that sort of analysis, you can really start to quantify how these initiatives benefit your company. And I think what's really exciting is many companies have many sustainability initiatives and if you do have a goal in the end of reducing greenhouse gas emissions at your company, there are multiple things that you can do. And by doing this sort of green CapEx analysis, you can actually determine whether or not you know, maybe two out of the three that you wanted to do are profitable and one doesn't quite break even. Maybe it's still justification to do all three because collectively they make economic sense. So I think that's really amazing because it's a good way to drive economic value creation. But you're also amplifying the impact of your work. You know, the other part of the puzzle that you did not allude to at the end of all of that analysis, we have the capital to bring to the table, and we've innovated. You want to talk a little bit about, yeah entirely, what we have available to be able to finance fleet electrification or whatever else? 

>> Szmigielski:
Yeah, we've innovated an entire toolkit of products that help serve customers where they are at in their sustainability journey, the types of investments that are right for them at that juncture, as well as the type of tenor and instrumentation that is required for each individual instrument. So in the case of fleet electrification, we have green syndicated and bilateral lease and loan solutions through Wells Fargo equipment finance, which is a really exciting opportunity for our clients not only to address their fleet electrification, but also communicate to their lenders and investors the positive work they're doing from a financial and economic perspective, from a social perspective, and certainly from an environmental perspective. And I think sustainability ultimately as it relates to integration into the financial markets, really operates quite a bit like a nutrition facts label. 

>> Piché:
Right? 

>> Szmigielski:
So it's a little bit like, you know, what are those economic or financial gains, maybe the calories, but also for certain stakeholders or certain consumers. If you look at a nutrition facts label, there are other things that are important than just the calories. And what we're trying to achieve is a multilayer of materiality or benefit that satisfies not only those seeking a financial or calorie return, but also the supplements and the vitamins as they require them. 

>> Piché:
Yeah, that's a really good analogy because the other thing that we are seeing is that sustainability is not a one size fits all. Not every company will be adopting the exact same approaches. And so when you create these multifaceted views on sustainability strategies for companies, those companies and their stakeholders can decide whether they want to prioritize water over GHG emissions much like a consumer might prioritize you know, iron over calcium. It's, you know everybody is going to be a little bit different. So I think it's really great. And it, it really has led to innovation, which you've just talked about. We have a slew of new financing solutions that never existed before. We have new abilities to advise our clients as they look at strategic opportunities. And all of it is about value creation now. Maybe the final concept that we could bring up is that of double materiality. It’s something we hear a lot about. Double materiality can have several meanings to different stakeholders as you know. Can you give me your take, David, on what double materiality means, or the double bottom line, not in the specific context of financial and risk disclosure, which has very unique considerations, but in the broader context of what it means to companies’ business strategies and the real economy. 

>> Szmigielski:
Double materiality ultimately comes down to an idea that the most successful sustainability strategies, those that have both financial economic benefits as well as environmental and social benefits that are quantifiable, and those are the ones that resonate the most with stakeholders certainly, and have the greatest impact in both of those regards. You can see this most manifest in the real estate space, of course, which is that the most energy efficient buildings or buildings with upgrades and retrofits into their performance, immediately materialize in financial savings and gains reduction of power, electricity bill, etc., but also benefits to those that occupy those buildings and certainly also the emissions reductions associated with those investments. And so we are seeing clients double down on double materiality and bring very innovative concepts to market that grow with them. We have a structure for clients called Sustainability Investment Linked Loan or Hybrid Supplement, as we call it, that essentially allow our clients to utilize the facility as they make these investment decisions over time rather than pre-planning what that aggregate investment is at time of close, allowing them to drawdown and repay a drawdown and repay. And I know that's one that you're excited about. And many of the innovations in this space maybe welcome some of your input around that as well. 

>> Piché:
Yeah. And I think what you're describing is the sophistication of this work as it develops. A few years ago, all we were talking about were green bonds and that's all here was. And now we are really elevating the dialog into these really substantive strategic topics. And I think that this is where the direction of travel is going. We have to be doubling down on double materiality. As you just said, and. I think our work will follow that. I think our clients are going to be doing the same. I'm really excited about how sustainability has become value creating in the last few years, and I'm really excited about Wells Fargo's role in supporting our clients as they go down some of their own strategic journeys around sustainability. I really look forward to coming back in the future and telling you more about how the space is developing and how Wells Fargo is supporting clients. It's great to be here with you, David, and thank you for joining us. 

>> Szmigielski:
Always a pleasure, Genevieve. Thanks for having me. 

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