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We'll focus on highlighting innovative ways visionary clients are embracing new strategies and solutions to elevate their business growth, financial performance, and ability to deliver on long-term outcomes.
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In this episode, join Donnie Johnson and Frank Van Buren, Development Officer Leaders for Markets and Banking, as they dig in and discuss the importance of leveraging life’s powerful lessons and how they can translate to significant growth in your career and personal life.
>> Intro:
This is Leading Voices, a Wells Fargo podcast. Our clients think big, and so do we. In our Leading Voices series, our leaders will share deep expertise across corporate banking, investment banking, fixed income, equities, and commercial real estate, while exploring the timely trends, actionable insights, and strategic opportunities to help power your business into a better, more inspired, and equitable future. With a focus on highlighting innovative ways industry leaders and visionary clients are embracing new sustainable strategies and solutions to navigate change, elevate their business growth, and deliver on long-term outcomes.
>>Donnie Johnson:
Hello, everyone. My name is Donnie Johnson. I’m an officer leader for CIB’s markets division. I'm going to play your host. I'm here with my colleague, Frank Van Buren. Author, public speaker, development officer, leader, military veteran, all around phenomenal human being.
>>Frank Van Buren:
It's an absolute pleasure to be here today with my good friend, Donnie Johnson. Donnie and I have been colleagues for many, many years. We started off on the trading floor together. So when we came up with this idea to host this podcast, I can't tell you how excited I was to hear about it and to be part of it. So thank you for inviting me.
>>Donnie Johnson:
Likewise, Frank. Listen, we're going to get right into it. We're going to talk about several different topics, but most importantly, we're going to talk about things that we think are most important to you and your development. So like I said earlier, Frank is also a published author. So one of the things that we're going to talk about today, some of the lessons that he talks about in his book, ‘Life Lessons From The Cockpit.”
>>Frank Van Buren:
I'm excited.
>>Donnie Johnson:
I'm excited for you. I'm excited for the listeners more important because I've read the book. I like the book. I loved the book. And you have some tremendous lessons in it. So what I want to make sure that we get to is, you know, we are talking from the perspective of life lessons that translate both into career but also personal. And you talk about in one of your chapters about opportunity wears camouflage. And you describe an experience where an opportunity presented itself when you least expected it. You didn't see it coming. So what is your advice for people, our junior talent out here, that that might have an opportunity that come their way, how do they prepare themselves for unexpected opportunities?
>>Frank Van Buren:
Well, it's a great lead in. I want to start with to step back just a little bit and discuss that the overarching philosophy when I wrote the book was that I wanted to really, really communicate the concept that the greatest lessons in life, oftentimes the greatest growth, comes through struggle comes through hardship, comes through overcoming adversity. And I wrote the book in a way that didn't glamorize my experience, but I tried to be very authentic in presenting all of the different angles that I had to consider as I worked my way through all of these things associated with doing very ambitious things, whether they're personal insecurities, whether they are gaps in confidence, gaps in skill training, etc. And the first concept that you mentioned, opportunity wears disguise. There's actually a pretty good story about it, and I won't ruin the book, but I will say that between my junior and senior year of college, I had a football knee injury and that pushed back my commissioning through the military for about a year. And the reason that’s significant is the allocations for all of the positions in the military post commissioning process where you go and get trained in a specific technique were already allocated by the time I came through the training because of this knee injury. And so, I found myself at the final day of training being electrified by riding on the back of this Black Hawk helicopter. And I got off the helicopter and naively I thought, well, I'm just going to put in my request and head off to flight training and become a pilot. Well, it turns out that being a pilot was one that's highly in demand. So, it was more than difficult. It was it felt impossible at that time and very frustrating because I couldn't seem to get my ticket to flight school. So fast forward to the story. I had taken a job with Harris, 3M. I was a rep selling fax machines and I stumbled across this gentleman named Mr. Don Hess, and he was a retired pilot, and he was a Vietnam veteran and had lots of connections in the military. And because of my willingness to articulate this dream that I had of one day becoming a pilot, he sensed that I was a person that was committed. I had quite a bit of energy, and he started to make calls on my behalf and came back to me with a proposal. He said, I have a way for you to get to flight school, but it's going to entail risk. And that risk is you're going to have to resign your commission. What you worked through college to become an officer, start again in the Army, go through basic training, and if you make it through there, you'll have a ticket to flight training. And if you finish flight training, you go on active duty flying the best aircraft in the Army. It was an opportunity that was disguised because it required risk. I took the opportunity and obviously from the title of the book, it worked out and it yielded results and I became a pilot. The important point here that we can transfer is oftentimes opportunity doesn't look exactly like you think it's going to look. Maybe there's path that you have to take before you get to the opportunity. As you see it, maybe it requires taking on some additional risk.
>> Frank Van Buren:
So, the number one thing that I always say about opportunity is because it's camouflage, you have to have a really good idea of what that opportunity entails. In other words, you have to step back and say, okay, what are the core ingredients that I'm looking for in an opportunity? Is there another path that gets me to that opportunity? And that's oftentimes based on really doing a good self-evaluation, introspection on your attributes. Have you thought about what your strengths are? Have you thought about what you bring to the table? What are those opportunities that trigger fulfillment and a sense of, you know, significance and importance in your life? And if you know those foundations, when you stumble into an opportunity that's camouflaged, you can see through it and see that if I do this, it gets to me where I want to go. And that is the key. The other key with understanding opportunities that are often the disguised is putting yourself in the flow of opportunities. And oftentimes that’s being willing to share your personal story, what is it that you aspire to? And you have to be willing to share that. In this case with Mr. Hess, if I would have been unable or unwilling to share with him this goal that I had because of maybe an insecurity that I wouldn't be able to achieve it, then he would not have been in a position to enable me. So, if you want to find enablers, people to facilitate your growth, then you have to be willing to open up and share what it is you're trying to accomplish. And sometimes that requires getting over insecurities or personal concerns with, ‘maybe I won't achieve it.’ The final piece I'll say on this opportunity wears disguises, you have to be able to visualize what the overall victory is for you. So, I often say, think about the type of person you want to become, not the particular job you want first. And it's simply looking at things in a more strategic big vision picture instead of short term tactical. Yes, I want to be an investment banker when I graduate college, but maybe larger than being an investment banker, I want to be an influential businessperson that is a subject matter expert that is involved in the community. So oftentimes I say, look out and identify people who you have a direct admiration for, whether they're people in history, whether there's someone in your family, whether there's someone you work with, identify what particular attribute or quality that they have that you want to emulate, and then start to piece together an overall vision statement of the person you want to become in ten or 15 years. If you know that and you can look towards different historical figures or family members and say, ‘You know, I really love that Winston Churchill was a fantastic speaker. I love that quality about him. And I want to emulate that. I love that Frederick Douglass was a tenacious person, able to break free of slavery, get to the north, educate himself and become a leading abolitionist. What kind of tenacity does it take to become that kind of person?’ And if you identify these qualities and you weave them together in a vision statement for who you want to become ten, 15, 20 years, then when the opportunity presents itself in disguise, it's easy to see if that opportunity will move you towards becoming that person. So, you got to get away from the tactical. I only see opportunity if it equates to the exact job or path that I want to take in the near term and think about how opportunity opens up the gateway to become the person that you aspire to become.
>>Donnie Johnson:
You've mentioned risk a couple of times in your answer. And so, I feel like oftentimes some people will not take an opportunity because they feel like, hey, this could be a risky endeavor. So first and foremost, what was the risk that you took by going back to pilot school? I want to get a little bit on that and then second, talk about the risk that people perceived and how that potentially could hold them back in taking advantage of an opportunity that may be in front of them that they didn't see ahead of time.
>>Frank Van Buren:
Yeah, great question. So the particular risk with this opportunity was I would fall on my face, so I would resign my commission, go from a college graduate lieutenant that's already been commission wearing, you know, they call it a butter bar, the gold bar on my shoulder to going back to becoming an E3, essentially the base level when you join the Army, even if you join out of high school. And I was going to have to go back through another series of officer trainings, qualifications. And if I made it through, I would then have my ticket to flight school. The risk there was if it didn't work, everyone would have thought it was an absolutely foolish move to make because the Army would have enlisted me in that current state as a private and I could have been doing anything the Army needed at that point. That was the first risk. The second risk was I was embarking on an endeavor that could risk my life. And you'll see in the book, there were very many times in the early stages of training where I wondered if I was going to get myself and everyone else killed because of the risk of learning how to fly a helicopter in the Army fashion. And there comes a point in the story where I literally had to solo the aircraft and by myself, and, you know, my instructor kind of gave me a wink and said, ‘You know, don't kill yourself.’
>>Donnie Johnson:
‘Good luck, buddy.’
>>Frank Van Buren:
Good luck right. But what you’re really getting at is a bigger concept, and that is how do we deal with the fear of failure? Right? Now, the fear of failure has killed more dreams than any other external force, whether it is structural discrimination, whether it is, know, lack of opportunities, what really kills your dream is your fear of failure, because you start to tap the brakes, you start to try to hedge what you're doing instead of going all in. And I always said the greatest lesson I learned when it comes to dealing with fear of failure is to recognize that the fear of regret is far greater. So, I've trained my mind to think, well, what if I'm 85, 90 years old and Donnie you know, my mother just passed away at 100 years old. So. But I'm not I'm not going to assume any of us are going to get to the centenarian phase. But what if I get to the end of my life and I'm on my deathbed and someone asks me, Frank, why didn't you really go for it? Why didn't you try to become the person that you really wanted to be in this case? Why didn't you go for the opportunity to become a pilot when you had the chance? And I'm more fearful of regret that I'll have to say, because I didn't have the courage to try and I was worried about not making it. Now that puts me in a position where I'm okay with failure. And if you remember what I said at the beginning, it is the recognition that through the failure, through the hardship, through the overcoming of adversity, persistence is how you become a better, stronger, more capable human being. It's not the good stuff. And so, once you embrace that concept, that failure, adversity, hardship is growth, then you no longer fear failure. You fear regret. It's a I know it's a mind game. You can look at it a thousand different ways, but if you can train yourself to do that and understand what Frederick Douglass, I told you he was one of my mentors, said, ‘Without struggle, there is no progress.’ Without struggle, there is no progress. So run towards those opportunities. If you fail, at least you fail while daring greatly. As Teddy Roosevelt said.
>>Donnie Johnson:
Love that love that.
>>Frank Van Buren:
So that your soul may never be with those cold and timid ones who’ve known neither victory nor defeat.
>>Donnie Johnson:
So, you talked about your risk. But the last thing that you said, let me tell you why it esonated so. One of the things that I always tried to instill into everyone that I have conversations with is gaining some perspective. And you can't really appreciate the magnitude of the risk that you may or may not take unless you've gotten perspective from older people, from more senior people, from people that have been there and done that to say, hey, listen, I know it might seem like a big deal to you now, but quite frankly, it's just not that big of a deal right now. In the scheme of the things that you're going to have in front of you in your life, trust me, it's not that big of a deal right now. A, and B, to your point about looking back at the end of your career or at the end of even if it's just a role or an assignment, looking back. Being able to speak to people that have been there and done that so that they can give you some perspective on how big of a risk you're actually taking. Because I do think that we tend to think the risks that we have in front of us might be a little bit bigger than they actually are.
>>Frank Van Buren:
Great point.
>>Donnie Johnson:
So gaining that perspective, I think, is really, really key. Last thing I want to.
>>Frank Van Buren:
Can I jump on that for a second.
>>Donnie Johnson:
Yes, please.
>>Frank Van Buren:
When I said that it is through hardship, failure, challenge of adversity that you grow, I should have added one more thing and that is, but you can learn from other people who have failed without actually going through the failure. Maybe the lesson doesn't burn in your soul the same way, but to the extent that you have as someone in finance or someone in medicine that has gone through, and you have the ability to go back and read their story, whether it is, through an autobiography. I always like autobiographies because I can, you know, I can really understand what they were going through. So learning from other people is whether it's in the bullpen, whether it's, you know, in through history or books, is absolutely key in creating your perspective. And remember, I learned that to the extent I want to motivate myself to become the best human being, I have to reduce the amount of people that I'm comparing myself to, only the great ones. So, if I want to be a great public speaker, I then reduce my relative value, for your finance gurus, relative value group so it’s just a few people. Anthony Robbins. Churchill. President Barack Obama and I say, ‘I want to be great like them.’ And I have rabbits and I chase. But if my confidence is suffering, and I’m trying to pick myself up off the ground I need to widen my relative group to the entire population of the world and say, yeah, I didn’t do that well on that speech, but you know what, relative to the 7.7 billion people on the planet I’m doing ok. The key is manipulating your comp group, or your relative comparison group. Whether it’s how you feel about how you look, whether it’s your performance is the key to managing your emotional, your emotional approach to things.
>>Donnie Johnson:
Increasing your data set, I believe, is what we call in mathematics terms. So, no, I love that. Listen. Learn from other people's mistakes, not your own. You will learn from your own mistakes, certainly. But if you can learn from other people's mistakes, it'll minimize your own mistakes. So, I love that. So, you talked about how the military helps to eliminate some artificial barriers that society may create and instill some common purpose with common experience. So first and foremost, what are some of those artificial barriers?
>>Frank Van Buren:
You know, all of the diversity dimensions, how we sometimes get caught up in society, whether it's race, whether it's religion, whether it's gender, whether it's, you know, a particular type of, art that you like, maybe it's, you know, your political persuasion. All of those things can create a murky environment where we're thinking more of the differences than the things we have in common. And it is key that all the great leaders in history, whether they are perceived as bad or good, I won't give you any examples, were able to ignite a group of people, a society, to see a common purpose, right? And to see a common purpose, that is what separates a leader from a manager. A manager works to see the differences. Let's say the manager is a football coach. Well, the manager sees well, Donnie, he is very athletic, you know, he's fast, he's agile.
>>Donnie Johnson:
Was. Please put was in front of that.
>>Frank Van Buren:
Lets him out in space, in football, Donnie was a football player, and throw him the bubble screen and see if anyone can cover him. But Charlie here, he’s really big, strong and slow, but he can move people. Let’s put him on the line. In the athletic endeavors or the military, it’s very obvious that you always put people in a position where they maximize their strength. But sometimes in life we don’t think about it in that context. And that’s a big part of what we want to do.
>>Donnie Johnson:
Can we get off on that for a second? I got to I've got to ask you a question that I have been really thinking a lot about recently, and this is completely, completely off script, but I really I,
>>Frank Van Buren:
I like off script.
>>Donnie Johnson:
I value your perspective on this. Why is it that when we're discussing leadership, the military is always held as the gold standard for leadership?
>>Frank Van Buren:
Well, great, question, to start, the military has a system of taking in people from all walks of life. So, you have a kid from South Central L.A., a kid from rural Idaho, kid from suburban, you know, D.C. area. And you put them all together and you start with a formula which is as simple as maybe the haircut or the dress or the items that they're able to have. Everyone gets brought down to a common denominator, and from there they introduce a common enemy. Right? It's your drill sergeant at first, but the formula is stating that everyone needs a common base to start. It doesn't mean that the military diminishes anyone's past or history, but at that state that you come together for the experience, it has to be common. So, you're not allowed to have five, you know, pairs of boots, you know, four of them shined up ready to go for the next inspection. And I'm only allowed to have one. Everyone has. So, the military is really good at leveling the playing field with the base. And then they give you a common experience and they hold everyone to common expectations. So, whether it's physical training, whether it's being able to pass an inspection there is an approach that says you all have to go through the same experience with the same standards. The military is fantastic for that. And we're talking at a very elementary level. When you get into things like the sophisticated military training, like flying aircraft or, parachuting at 30,000 feet as a Navy SEAL, obviously, they're very, very, you know, more nuanced, complicated detail. But the military does well because they give you a common experience. And what happens is that kid from South Central and that kid from Idaho, they start to come together to achieve the common goal, which could be getting the unit through the inspection, making sure everyone passes the physical fitness because they know that the military will not allow super stars to emerge and leave people behind. It's a fundamental concept of the military. So how do we convert that to the corporate world?
>>Donnie Johnson:
That was my follow up. Thank you for asking yourself the question.
>>Frank Van Buren:
I knew you well. We’ve known each other for 20 years. Well, the key is we have to get really good at giving the let's say, the interns a common experience. So, they come in. We have to all give them the same computers. We have to give them the same really good training. We have to give them the same access to mentors. We have to share the same information with them, and then we have to hold them all to high standards. The same high standards. And when we do that, it allows them to then come together and start to share information, right? We can never make it also an environment where it's zero-sum game. I win, you lose. We always have to make it clear that people will emerge as really good performers, but it doesn't mean at the expense of someone else. So, we have to encourage people to go back and help that person in the bullpen that's struggling with the model. If the person that's really good goes back and helps the person that's struggling and we all have areas we’ll struggle, then as a whole we’re better. So, the concept that we have to get into corporate America is we succeed as a team, not as individuals. And the people that, you know, support those core values are the ones that should be rewarded in the long run. The other thing that we have to do, and we do quite a bit with ensuring that, you know, any kind of dimensions, whether in diversity dimensions or where you're from or what should never be something that's held again, we should always have an environment that is respectful and allows for people to bring their authentic self to work without regard for any kind of retribution. And I think we've done a really good job at Wells Fargo of moving towards that. The military's really good with that, and I think we can learn quite a few lessons. And then of course, there's always the fun stuff in the military, like, you know, the Jody cadences. And that's, you know, when you're out running together. Right. We would sing a song that everyone learns. And through that, through the struggle, the physical struggle and the singing of the song, there is a connectivity that's forged. Well, I don't think we're going to be walking around the trading floor or singing songs, but I will tell you that to the extent we can do common things, for example, we have a day where we all go and work on Habitat for Humanity, or we have a day where we all decide we're going to contribute to something that's larger than oneself. We will start to forge that cohesiveness and create a much better culture. And I think we're on the way and I feel really good about where we are.
>>Donnie Johnson:
So, what I took away from that, what I heard you say was the military has created a mechanism to create a more equal opportunity environment.
>>Frank Van Buren:
Yes, and with equal opportunity comes equal responsibility. And I think that’s sometimes the gap that we miss, whether it's in the military or anywhere else. The military makes it very clear if you need 70 push-ups to pass, I'm just throwing this out there. It's been so long. I don't even know how much it takes to pass. If you don't pass, you don't pass. Right. And so there has to be a credibility that the common experience includes common, expectations and common thresholds of performance. Now, what I will say is you know, if Donnie doesn't make his 70 push-ups, there is a program and there is a lot of energy that goes to getting him up to that level. We used to have a process where when we went out for a run as a group, if stragglers started to emerge and fall back, the whole formation, we could be five, six miles into a run. Everyone's exhausted. Looking forward to finishing the last mile. And if people start to fall out, the leader of the run would turn the whole formation around, run back to those stragglers, rejoin them, which of course, now everyone in the group is a little bit mad at the stragglers because now they're running more than the six miles. But the concept was everyone can be brought on. The concept of it's our responsibility as leaders, whether that's someone that's a VP or an associate in a bullpen looking after a brand-new analyst or intern, it's our responsibility to make sure the other person gets up to speed and can make those thresholds.
>>Donnie Johnson:
So more equal opportunity, more clear standards and more support when those standards are met. I love that.
>>Frank Van Buren:
Precisely.
>>Donnie Johnson:
Another part in the book you talked about, effectively not all doors being open to you when you thought you had the opportunity. You found some closed doors at some point. You, back doored your way, as you would say, Into flight school. So, what does one do? Please give some advice. And share some perspective on what does one do when they continue to work hard and are diligent and opportunities are not coming their way?
>>Frank Van Buren:
Great question, because it's very possible that the opportunity that you perceive to be the right opportunity may not in retrospect, after you've giving it sufficient time, may not prove to be the opportunity that is really ideally suited for you. So, I'll start by saying that the number one question you need to ask is why are these doors continuing to close for me? And it has to be an honest assessment of your capabilities, your desire to do it. If there are gaps that are causing these doors to close, are you willing to do what it takes to close those gaps? For example, if you want to be in a certain finance job and they know that deep accounting or financial statement analysis is necessary, and the program that you went through doesn't have that. Are you willing to take the steps to go and do seminars or self-study programs to close those gaps? But the bigger question here is when you identify an opportunity and doors are closing, you need to be honest with the reason that they're closing. Now, you may determine that you just aren't trying hard enough. And maybe that involves you need to get out of this silo that you're communicating through, and you need to think about getting other perspectives and you need to broaden the amount of people that you're sharing your story with. My doors were closed because I was trying to take a traditional route when that route was not open anymore because of my knee injury, it was closed, and the frustration was I kept trying to go down that same route and tried in trying to get them to make exceptions to let me in the program instead of trying to get creative. Like ultimately when I stumbled into Mr. Hess to figure out that there are different routes to get you to where you want if you're willing and able to open your mind and think creatively. Sometimes your first move, your opening gambit, let's say, out of college, isn't to that perfect opportunity. The door is closed. Oftentimes in investment banking, the recruiting is so far accelerated forward that if you missed that window as a sophomore in college and you don't apply, you're kind of behind the eight ball because most of the big bulge bracket firms, they hire their full-time folks from the summer intern class their junior year, but the summer intern class and the junior is selected April, May of your sophomore year. So, if you then missed that window and you're behind the eight ball and then you're trying to pigeonhole your way into the normal process, you might be missing the opportunity and you might be coming frustrated and doors are closing because you're not stepping back and saying, well, wait, there are some boutiques that hire investment bankers. Maybe I'll get the experience there. And it'll position me my junior year to then able to offer some value. Maybe there are correlated opportunities. Maybe I can go become a consultant or financial statement analysis expert. Or I can learn modeling in real estate and then double back with a better candidacy than I have right now. Instead of continuing to bang your head against the same door, creativity, aggressiveness in seeking opportunities, and more importantly, when the door opens, you have to be willing to run through it at all costs. And it may not be the perfect door you want.
>>Donnie Johnson:
When you're talking about being ready for the opportunity sometimes, we aren't ready for that opportunity when we think that we are. And we've been working lots and lots of hours. At the end of the day, it required more. It required more years or more experience or more technical expertise, whatever it may be. Sometimes we realized that it just wasn't the right time for us. We got to continue to keep working. We hear a lot about impact. I think most people, for the most part say, which would want to say, I want to make an impact, I want to make a positive impact. So, for you, what are some of the things that you've seen whereby people are able to make a positive impact in this corporate setting.
>>Frank Van Buren:
This is going to be a somewhat nuanced answer because it's a complex, it's a simple in concept what is a positive impact. But when you weave in all the variables that a human being would think about before they deemed it to be a positive impact or a corporation deems it to be a positive impact, it gets a little a little more complicated. I'll start by saying no individual can feel like they've made a positive impact unless they're aligned with their core values. So, if I'm in a role and the role’s direct impact by the job description, I'll use trading. Since you and I met on the trading floor and the measurement of positive impact is a P&L. Let's say that you were derivatives trader Donnie. So, if the number one way that we're measuring your positive impact on the business is P&L and you have a great P&L, then the job description would say that you made a positive impact. But if you as a person don't value the positive impact through those lens, and instead you're viewing positive impact through your ability to, you know, alter the course of another human being's life or to express empathy, then your personal core values may allow you to intellectually see that you've made an impact, but you don't feel it. You don't feel it because it's not aligned with who you are. So, the number one thing about a positive impact is you've really got to do introspection and figure out what are those things that give you a sense of fulfillment? Think back on your life 3 to 5 times where you felt important. You felt like I was doing something that was meaningful. What were you doing? And break each case down and figure out if there's a common thread. If you know that common thread, it may not be so I can see, you know, a P&L that has large numbers. So, you may have a disconnect. But as far as the job description, you could be making a positive impact. And then when you talk about core values, they're very much personal and they have to resonate with each person because you cannot feel a positive impact if it's not touching on the things that give you a sense of fulfillment. So even though you're sitting there and you're trading and you're making lots of money, you put up $50 million this year, everyone's lionizing you because Donnie Johnson did a great job making money. You may know it intellectually. You may get paid for it because it's valued by the firm, but inside it may not feel like it's a positive impact. And that's how you have people who may be incredibly successful in their job, but there's something missing they’re, you know, dissatisfied, comfortably dissatisfied. On a corporate basis, we have a corporate set of core values, and if you want to make an impact from the corporate perspective, well, you should be conducting yourself in concert with those core values. So, there are all these variables that go into it. Personally, for me to make a positive impact, I have to really believe that I'm impacting another human being. And when I was a banker, when I was sales and trading, even when the moments when we had big success, I didn't feel that to the same degree that I did when I was mentoring someone or in the military when we landed helicopters in these remote villages in Central America, and we took doctors and medical teams. That's how I'm wired. And again, it goes back to introspection and understanding what is important to you? Each person's different. So, I know that's a really, really cloudy answer to what you said, but a nuanced point.
>>Donnie Johnson:
I don't know. I don't know if it's as cloudy as you say it is. I can't echo strongly enough the need for that self-introspection to understand what are those values that are most important to you that will make you happy in the tasks that you do on a daily basis, in the way that you impact people and your firm. And then I'll also say one additional thing we probably have a core set of values that are in us and with us as a result of our upbringing, our experience of childhood, our education and you name it, a set of 3 to 4 or five. But the priority can change over time, right?
>>Frank Van Buren:
Yes.
>>Donnie Johnson:
It's not that necessarily, you know, you go from polar opposites in values, but at the end of the day, different times in your life, you will prioritize different values that you have. And so, you need to always have the mindset that you will do continual self-introspection because you need to make sure that the task are lining up to those first and second priorities.
>>Frank Van Buren:
Let me jump in one thing. I see it almost as continuous, but I like to do it in two year clips. I think if you take a job, it's your responsibility to reciprocate whatever the organization gave to you for the opportunity. You work as hard as you can for two years. You try to master the fundamentals of the job. You try to learn the culture, get along, be a great teammate. You look for opportunities to add value above and beyond your job, and at the end of two years, you should have enough time to know if how you rate relative to others in those base skills, you should have an understanding of, you know, is this consistent with the human being? Because if you do it too early, your confidence is low because you can't be confident unless you have competence. So, confidence is like is never like a birthright and you have it for your whole life. I've been very, very confident and I've been not confident at all. And the difference was, your perceived competence time in job understanding, the mechanics of the job. So, after two years, you do need to then every two years you should come to a fork in the road. Even if you're not going anywhere. You should say, okay, from what I know in the last two years, should I continue down this fork or change to another four? And so, it's an evolutionary process. Think about it this way. Most people mismanage life. And I don't mean to sound like I've always properly managed. I definitely had huge periods where I mismanaged, but these concepts that I'm talking about now, I've learned how to manage life. But think about this. You're a kid, you're five years old. You're in the backyard with your brother, sister. You're having a great time, you're playing, you're laughing, everything's wonderful. And then you start school, you invest in education, you invest in, you know, in growth in all different ways, whether it's, you know, language skills, athletics skills. You're growing as a human being in your relationships. And you go on, you get a good SAT score, you get into a good college like mom and dad want you to do, and then you get a good job. And then from that good job, you get a promotion. And all along you were just hitting the targets in front of you without ever asking, ‘Am I increasing my fulfillment and happiness from that starting point of five years old?’ Now, I will tell you, most people go through this process, end up in middle age. They have all the trappings of success, whether it's the car, the job, the title, the prestige. But inside there is a sense that they are not happy or unfulfilled. And the reason is not because they didn't put in tremendous effort. They achieved everything they wanted. It's because they never ensured that they were aligned with a path that would give them incremental happiness. If you go if you think of a scale X and Y axis and you're looking at happiness and time or your life and that line is dwindling as it goes out. You have mismanaged your life. I'm just being honest.
>>Donnie Johnson:
I couldn't agree more.
>>Frank Van Buren:
And we all have done it. So, the way you correct that is you've got to really spend time in introspection and understand that, yes, the lines are going to go down at first from when you're five, but over time, your line should be going back up because every successive decision or fork in the road should be made. The decision is this moving me towards the job that I should do, not that I can do.
>>Donnie Johnson:
Frank, I can't tell you how much I appreciated this conversation. This has been a long time coming, my friend.
>>Frank Van Buren:
That’s right.
>>Donnie Johnson:
This has been a long time coming. I enjoyed it. I hope that the rest of the Leading Voices audience enjoyed it as well. Thank you very much for your time. Remember, Frank Van Buren, Development Officer, Leader for the banking division. My name is Donnie Johnson. I'm the development officer leader for the markets division. Anything we can do to help you and your success, that is our job. We are here to make sure that you are as successful as possible.
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This information is provided for educational and illustrative purposes only.
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This podcast should not be copied, distributed, published, or reproduced, in whole or in part.
The views expressed on this podcast represent the opinions of the authors on prospective trends in the domestic markets and the financial institutions industry and is intended for global financial institutions partners and customers, and other market participants who are customers of Wells Fargo. The views expressed within are not intended as a recommendation offer or solicitation with respect to the purchase or sale of any security or other financial product nor does it constitute professional advice. The views and opinions expressed are also not necessarily those of Wells Fargo and may differ from the views and opinions of other departments or divisions of Wells Fargo. Wells Fargo does not make any representation or warranty, express or implied, as to the accuracy or completeness of the statements or any information expressed within this podcast and any liability therefore (including in respect of direct, indirect, or consequential loss or damage) is expressly disclaimed.
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Opinions expressed are based on our experience and judgment as of this recording and are subject to change without notice.
This is not an offer to sell or to buy any security or foreign currency. Any past performance discussed during this podcast is no guarantee of future results. Any forward-looking statements or forecasts are based on assumptions and actual results may vary from any such statements or forecasts.
Any indices referenced are for performance comparison are unmanaged and cannot be invested into directly. As always please remember investing involves risk and possible loss of principal capital; please seek advice from your licensed professionals.
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Wells Fargo Corporate & Investment Banking (CIB) and Wells Fargo Securities (WFS) are the trade names used for the corporate banking, capital markets, and investment banking services of Wells Fargo & Company and its subsidiaries, including but not limited to Wells Fargo Securities, LLC, member of NYSE, FINRA, NFA, and SIPC, Wells Fargo Prime Services, LLC, member of FINRA, NFA and SIPC, and Wells Fargo Bank, N.A., member NFA and swap dealer registered with the CFTC and security-based swap dealer registered with the SEC, member FDIC. Wells Fargo Securities, LLC and Wells Fargo Prime Services, LLC, are distinct entities from affiliated banks and thrifts.
In this episode, join Danielle Squires, Head of Diverse Segments for Corporate and Investment Banking and her first guest Kristy Fercho, Head of Diverse Segments, Representation and Inclusion for Wells Fargo as they discuss how we work with diverse owned, led and minority depository institutions to help serve their needs.
This is Leading Voices, a Wells Fargo podcast. Our clients think big, and so do we. And our Leading Voices Series, our leaders will share deep expertise across corporate banking, investment banking, fixed income, equities and commercial real estate while exploring the timely trends, actionable insights and strategic opportunities to help power your business into a better, more inspired and equitable future. With a focus on highlighting innovative ways, industry leaders and visionary clients are embracing new, sustainable strategies and solutions to navigate change, elevate their business growth and deliver on long term outcomes.
>> Danielle Squires:
Hi, I'm Danielle Squires, head of diverse segments for corporate and investment banking at Wells Fargo. Joining me today is Kristy Fercho, Head of Diverse Segments, Representation and Inclusion at Wells Fargo. And today, we're going to be discussing what our team does and how we work with diverse owned and diverse led companies and minority depository institutions, or MDIs, to help serve the diverse needs of all our clients. All right. Let's get started. Kristy, thanks for being here today. And you, as we just said, are head of diverse segments, representation and inclusion across all of Wells Fargo. Can you start by summarizing what your role entails and more specifically, how Wells Fargo thinks about diverse segments as a company and why this is absolutely critical to the work that we do?
>> Kristy Fercho:
Yes, thanks Danielle. And first, let me just say thank you for inviting me to be part of this with you today. So, yes, diverse segments, representation and inclusion, and it is a mouthful as it relates to a title, but each word was very specifically chosen. So the diverse segments part of this really focuses on our diverse customer segments and wanting to make sure that we are in a position to better serve and grow the business that we have with our diverse customer segments. And you think like diverse segments, people often think about underserved or the unbanked. And for us though, in financial services, it really represents this full spectrum all the way from unbanked and low to moderate income all the way up to ultra-high net worth. And the opportunities that exist in each one of our businesses. Across each one of those dimensions. The representation and inclusion is what you would think about when you think about more classic DE&I at companies. The representation really is wanting to make sure that we look like America at every level of the bank from kind of the entry level all the way up to the board, and that we are managing the business with that diverse mindset at all levels of the company. And then the inclusion is how does it all come together, really bringing the best of all of these diverse mindsets and perspectives and experiences to create better products and solutions in service of these diverse customer segments. And so, as we really think about kind of those three pillars, they really do come together for us very well. This is opportunity that you think about. And when you say, ‘Why is this important to Wells Fargo?’ It really is. When we look down the road and we think about what the U.S. population is going to look like, it is projected that the population will be more racially and ethnically diverse as the non-Hispanic white population continues to shrink. And in fact, by 2045, you'll actually see that the U.S. is majority minority. And so that business proposition in terms of the changing demographic in the country is really, really powerful. But when you look at what's actually happening there, right, the economic value of let's just focus on Hispanics, which is the fastest growing population that we have, if you were to aggregate all that economic value, Hispanics, the GDP of them would be $2.8 trillion, which would be like the fifth largest country. If you think of minority owned businesses, right, with annual sales of $1.5 trillion and growing and certainly the economic value of this minimum of $340 billion in wealth opportunity that is coming from Black and African American households, the value prop is pretty clear around the changing demographics and how important it is for Wells Fargo to be able to meet the needs of those customers. And so it's not this short term fix that we were looking to do. It really is this long-term commitment that we have as a company but really being intentional about what are the actions that we need to take. And I don't have to tell that to you, Danielle, you're actually on the front line of that bringing this to life every day within CIB. And so I would love for you to just share with the audience what does a diverse segment inside of the corporate investment bank, does that look like and how are you approaching the work on a day to day basis?
>> Danielle Squires:
I appreciate that, Kristy, and especially your description of diverse segments, representation and inclusion is really holistic and encompassing, and that's, that's really important. And it's specifically important for us in the corporate and investment bank as we take a look at it as to how can we help really grow and maximize positive outcomes for our diverse clients and communities. And we do that by granting greater access to the capital markets, creating connections where there aren't any, and trying to fill product gaps that are in the market. We believe wholeheartedly that deepening relationships are core to our business. As we've said it before, building trust with our clients, our partners, our communities. We want to grow our companies and we want to really do that across the entire financial ecosystem. And so, we look at it not just on, you know, diverse, owned and diverse led companies themselves, but how can we grow and diversify what you might consider sort of big, large, traditionally non-diverse leadership teams and large public companies? How can we help them, one, achieve their DE&I strategy and two, really maximize the work they do with diverse constituencies as well? And some of the things that we've done that I think folks could find interesting would be the work that we've done with diverse broker dealers and underwriters. And specifically, this is a contingent of fantastic market participants that just haven't had the ability, if you will, from a connectivity perspective, to play a part in the capital markets, the equity capital markets, the fixed income capital markets, the bonds really across that spectrum of debt and capital raising. They've got a great distribution network but haven't always been known to the companies and corporations who are out there issuing the bonds. And guess what? We know that, right? We both know the diverse broker dealers and underwriters, and we're both helping those companies issue their bonds. And so, we feel that it's important to connect those to play a part in really elevating the diverse broker dealers, underwriters, given the strength of their own financial capacities and the things that they can do, how can we bring that out to our clients? It helps our clients and it helps the diverse broker dealers. It helps us back at Wells Fargo. Really, this is the purpose, I think, of what we want to do throughout all of our diverse segments groups, but specifically in the corporate and investment bank. We'd love to see a paradigm shift in the market. I think too often we hear folks say that diverse business is philanthropic and solely morally good, but we know and we believe that you pointed out the case, and we believe that as well in the corporate investment bank, that diverse business is simply good business and it's a great business. And so for us, that's kind of sort of how we work and how we lead. And we do this through our fixed income markets. We do it through our real estate, our commercial real estate portfolio, and we do it in traditional investment banking both here and abroad. Just really there's a great opportunity to diversify business across the entire financial ecosystem. And that's what we're focusing on, which is why we're really excited about it, because there's a lot of work to do and we think we've got a lot of time to do this work. And I think one of the things that I talked about sort of creating those connections, partnership and engagement are really key pillars of the work that I do. And you've been instrumental in that. And one of the things that we've done lately together is be a part of the Black Business Leaders Summit that we recently hosted in New Orleans. And I really think that this is a great example of engagement and action. We brought 150 Black leaders from across all industries, from across the country to really sit and talk about where we can partner together, how we can build together, how we celebrated each other, too, Right? We took a moment to say the work that is getting done and how great it. Kristy, as we said, you were there with me on the ground. I'd love to also hear you talk a bit about what you saw and heard from our clients and your thought overall and how this engagement can help us all move this ball forward.
>> Kristy Fercho:
Well, one, it was an extraordinary experience and I think just the energy in the room was really palpable as I was describing it to someone, you know, kind of as senior Black leaders many of us spend a lot of time being the only one in the room. And I think the power of what was created at the Black Business Leaders Summit is there was a bunch of the only’s, right? And so all at once we were no longer the only’s is in the room. It was a group of all only's and the alignment and the common interest of what people want to achieve or that they were working on their own to be able to drive forward was really palpable. And, you know, the one thing that we know about this work is it can't be done alone. There is so much power in partnership and shared focus, and I think we really experience that at the Black Business Leadership Summit. I mean, sitting around the table for people and sharing ideas that individuals had about or things that they were working on those opportunities, it just became really clear that like, Oh, I'm working on that. Oh, you're doing that? Oh, I am too. Who do you know? And then the know you game and the opportunities really just came so clear as people then got excited about the opportunities to be able to work together, to be able to identify the common challenges that everybody was facing and then in saying, okay, how do we solve those together? Right? And really bringing that collective knowledge to the table to be able to advance it. But it also is this really intentional dialog and really deliberate dialog around how do we solve these problems. I think everyone knows kind of what the key issues and the problems were, but there was nobody sitting around to admire the problems. It really was how do we lean in and be able to do this work together? And I think that's what was most exciting for me coming out of it. It wasn't only just the acknowledgment of partnership and the engagement, but the creativity and the idea generation that came from if we partnered together, we could advance this more quickly. I think that's really what Wells Fargo is trying to do in this space, is we're trying to say, can we bring a group of people together as the convener, people that have common shared goals and interests, and can we identify a handful of ideas that we could really move forward in a meaningful way with Wells Fargo leveraging our resources and our distribution network across the different lines of business and across the country to be able to solve these problems. And so I think it was a tremendous opportunity to have a positive impact on the communities where we all work and live and play. And it was just really exciting to see all of that come together. And I can't wait to see the outcomes that actually get produced as a result of it. So it was an exceptional experience for me for sure. But, you know, we're just not talking about the fact that it was a great experience in a great location for a couple of days. But I really do think about and as I said Danielle, the business opportunity that gets created going forward. And so I'd be great to hear you talk a little bit about how these engagements really drive business results from Wells Fargo.
>> Danielle Squires:
Yeah, and I think it kind of brings us back to the idea that diverse business is good business.
>> Kristy Fercho:
Sure.
>> Danielle Squires:
And you talked about that. We're not just talking, but we are, we’re sitting there, we're analyzing, we're dissecting, and we're really feeding off, I think, the energy and the positivity in the room with thoughts on what solutions can be and to go out and drive them. I always say this isn't a one bank solution. This isn't a one person, a one company solution. What took hundreds of years to really disenfranchise people and systematically, it's not going to be solved by one bank or one person over the next couple of months. But really to be very deliberate, very on top of it and very forward looking and forward thinking over the next several years and paying attention to every spot that's out there where we can actually do better and do stuff together. And I think that's really what's important. And as you talk about driving business, right, the things that we think of are where are there real estate opportunities in the zones that need development and need investment and how can we bring groups of people together to really do that together? Where are the opportunities, where there are capital raising needs and ideas, and how can we bring those who have capital together with those who need capital to get it right? That's actually how businesses grow and develop by having right access to capital, having the right ideas and the right support behind them. And so, Wells Fargo can be a part all along the way, all three of those. But again, if we can bring more people along, we can grow faster and grow bigger together. And I think that's pretty big. So from us, from a business perspective, we look at how many financing opportunities are there at that table, right, that we can help be a part of as well. How many companies realize that they can grow by, by purchasing another company that's out there? Maybe they met them there or maybe they have an idea from there from out of it. How can we help them and guide them through that process and be value add there? You know, some of the other things I think about too are how far and wide can this message go? And by not limiting this to one industry, or not limiting this to sort of one type of group or one geographic location. What we've also done to spread the word wide and far, right?
One of the things I said at that conference I think is really important that we talk about all the time is the things that we discuss in these inner circles or these meetingsor these groups to move forward. You know, I think I said something like what happens in New Orleans doesn't stay in New Orleans. It’s not Las Vegas, right? We kind of move things forward and we've got to do more conversations like this. So, if there's even somebody listening today who says, you know, I have a great idea, great. We want to hear that idea. We want to know what we can do together. And so to me, that's what driving business forward looks like. It's creating opportunities and places where people can bring ideas to us or we can bring ideas to them. And there's some sort of business driving opportunity going forward that we do together and bring other and more people in.
>> Kristy Fercho:
Yeah, and you said something critical there, which I think is really important for people to hear. When you think about the large banks or financial institutions, I think most people probably think about, oh, we're in competition. And while that may be true in a lot of areas, it is not true in this area. And I love how you captured, you know, the complexity of this issue really does require us to all work together to bring this forward. So, this is a space where collaboration and cooperation actually is in all of our mutual shared interests. If somebody has got a great idea, let's share it so we can build on it and expand on it. And I think that's how we think about this work at Wells Fargo, which is people are out doing great things all over this country. And, and as we're looking at it, we're saying, where can we partner and engage to be able to add value so that the level of success achieved is greater because of our involvement. And that's a little bit of the measuring stick that we're going to hold ourselves accountable to, which is did we make it better by engaging and involving and could we then grow this? And so that level of cooperation is, I think, really important in this work. No one can do it alone.
>> Danielle Squires:
Yeah, it actually makes me think of one other thing that we talked about and that we continue to think is a critical part. It's we’re moving and I mentioned this in the beginning, the minority depository institutions specifically there are 20 Black owned banks in the United States. Now, obviously there were more before, but only 20 now. And while we've played at Wells Fargo, in part in helping to grow and maximize their efforts and their positive work through deposits, through assistance, through guidance, through equity investments, $50 million across 13, I have to say there's more to do and there's more that we can do and there's more that other banks can do and more that other companies can do with placing deposits in them as well and helping them grow. They serve a tremendous community team and they serve a group of folks across the United States who need their services and need their bank. Again, you said it. It's not a competition in that respect. Right. I will say that I look forward to the day where we are 30, 40 years from now, and maybe this becomes a larger competition to get all this done with all these banks. But the point is, right now, it isn’t. Right now we all need to be in this and doing that work, like you said. And so, Kristy, also one of the greatest things I think, about our Black Business Leaders Summit is, again, this wasn't sort of corporate investment banking specific, right? This included Ruth Jackson, from our commercial bank, who was in conversation with Wole Coaxum from MoCaFi. Right. An amazing company, diverse owned company, doing business with governments out there, one that we've invested in and one that we want to see continue to grow. In addition to that, had the opportunity to speak on Bloomberg Radio with Jon Weiss, who's the head of our Corporate and Investment Bank and your peer on the Wells Fargo Operating Committee. It's just truly coming together and understanding that together we can push all of this forward when we work together to do it. And then the other thing I'd mention as I continue to talk about our minority depository institutions, Todd McDonald, who's president of Liberty Bank, Right. One of the oldest and the largest Black owned MDI that's out there and based in New Orleans, and he was in conversation with Nicole Elam, who's president of the National Bankers Association and CEO there, and the National Bankers Association, as you know. But maybe many of our listeners may not know is the trade organization for all the MDIs, of which there are 144. So to have them in conversation with the American public on Bloomberg Radio with well over a million listeners really, I think broadened the horizon and the reach of our MDIs. And so these are the things that I think were so wonderful to accomplish through Black Business Leaders Summit. And it was our inaugural summit, which, you know, as you said before, from an excitement perspective, I think it only gets bigger and better from here. So I'm just so happy that those participants can play a really large part of the success and hopefully does tremendously well for their businesses as well.
>> Kristy Fercho:
Yeah, and I couldn't agree more Danielle. And what was powerful for me as well is, you know, the power of Bloomberg being there, it was a microcosm of the rooms that, you know, are happening all over this country, right. People coming together and convening to really solve business issues and the Bloomberg interviews just gave people outside of the Black Business Summit visibility into the conversations that are happening in this space. And when you talk about the spectrum for Wells Fargo, and I think that really is important, we talk about this access across the entire continuum from unbanked all the way up to ultrahigh net worth and from small mom and pop small business all the way up to large corporate banks. I mean, you had Dave Steward in the room, right, the largest privately held Black business in the country with Worldwide Technologies and the conversation and insight about how he started and really grew that business, because there was a lot of people in that room that are thinking about how do I get from being, you know, $5 million to $10 million and $10 million to $25 million, $25 million to $100 million, And you have Dave there sitting I think I'll do $20 billion this year in revenue. It's pretty powerful and you certainly can't leave the conversation without talking about the fireside chat that I had the opportunity to facilitate with Chairman T.D. Jakes and the work that we're doing with our disruptive partnership with the T.D. Jakes Enterprises and really the potential to really reach into these communities. And I think, again, going back to this theme about partnership and engagement, the power of being able to have folks who are so plugged in and entrenched and really trusted advisor and source like a T.D. Jakes, and to be able to be at the table and in conversation with him about what are the needs of the community, how do we earn the trust, how do we provide access when we show up with a product or a solution? How do we ensure that they actually trust that we're going to do the right thing in the communities? And that's really, I think, the power of the conversation that got forged at the Black Business Leaders Summit. But also it really is the start of conversations that will continue long after New Orleans.
>> Danielle Squires:
I have to tell you, Kristy, this was a really, really incredible conversation and really just the start, as you said, it's one where we have to continue and have to continue to make progress. You talked about it. We're committed to advancing diversity, equity and inclusion by helping ensure all people across our workforce, our communities, our partners and our clients feel valued and respected, have equal access to resources, services, products and opportunities to succeed. We want to be at the forefront of it. We want to partner with people to get it done. So I have to thank you so much for joining me today. And for our listeners, please stay tuned for more conversations from our diverse segments leaders as well in the coming weeks and months. As community and client leaders, we are here to serve you and we are here to work with you. So we thank you very much for listening today.
Disclosures:
This information is provided for educational and illustrative purposes only.
Securities are:
This podcast should not be copied, distributed, published, or reproduced, in whole or in part.
The views expressed on this podcast represent the opinions of the authors on prospective trends in the domestic markets and the financial institutions industry and is intended for global financial institutions partners and customers, and other market participants who are customers of Wells Fargo. The views expressed within are not intended as a recommendation offer or solicitation with respect to the purchase or sale of any security or other financial product nor does it constitute professional advice. The views and opinions expressed are also not necessarily those of Wells Fargo and may differ from the views and opinions of other departments or divisions of Wells Fargo. Wells Fargo does not make any representation or warranty, express or implied, as to the accuracy or completeness of the statements or any information expressed within this podcast and any liability therefore (including in respect of direct, indirect, or consequential loss or damage) is expressly disclaimed.
We do not guarantee this information but have obtained it from sources we believe to be reliable.
Opinions expressed are based on our experience and judgment as of this recording and are subject to change without notice.
This is not an offer to sell or to buy any security or foreign currency. Any past performance discussed during this podcast is no guarantee of future results. Any forward-looking statements or forecasts are based on assumptions and actual results may vary from any such statements or forecasts.
Any indices referenced are for performance comparison are unmanaged and cannot be invested into directly. As always please remember investing involves risk and possible loss of principal capital; please seek advice from your licensed professionals.
All price references and market forecasts are as of the date of recording.
Wells Fargo Corporate & Investment Banking (CIB) and Wells Fargo Securities (WFS) are the trade names used for the corporate banking, capital markets, and investment banking services of Wells Fargo & Company and its subsidiaries, including but not limited to Wells Fargo Securities, LLC, member of NYSE, FINRA, NFA, and SIPC, Wells Fargo Prime Services, LLC, member of FINRA, NFA and SIPC, and Wells Fargo Bank, N.A., member NFA and swap dealer registered with the CFTC and security-based swap dealer registered with the SEC, member FDIC. Wells Fargo Securities, LLC and Wells Fargo Prime Services, LLC, are distinct entities from affiliated banks and thrifts.
In this podcast episode, our Sustainable Finance and Advisory team explores top new trends, insights, and examples of how sustainability has become ‘value creating’ in the last few years. And shares Wells Fargo's on-going commitment and role in supporting our clients as they go down some of their strategic journeys around sustainability.
This is Leading Voices, a Wells Fargo podcast. Our clients think big, and so do we. In our Leading Voices series, our leaders will share deep expertise across corporate banking, investment banking, fixed income, equities, and commercial real estate, while exploring the timely trends, actionable insights, and strategic opportunities to help power your business into a better, more inspired, and equitable future. With a focus on highlighting innovative ways industry leaders and visionary clients are embracing new sustainable strategies and solutions to navigate change, elevate their business growth, and deliver on long-term outcomes.
>> Geneviève Piché:
A few years ago, all we were talking about were green bonds. And that’s all there was. And now we are really elevating the dialog.
>> Piché:
Welcome to Wells Fargo's Corporate and Investment Banking's Leading Voices podcast. This is our very first podcast, and I am super excited to be here with you. My name is Geneviève Piché. I lead the Sustainable Finance and Advisory Group. And I am joined here by David Szmigielski on our team. Hi, David.
>> David Szmigielski:
Hi, Geneviève, glad to be here in Charlotte with you. It's such a sunny day. It’s beautiful out.
>> Piché:
Thank you so much for coming from New York this morning. New Jersey, actually your home state. There is something really quirky that we were just talking about before we started, which is that you really love swamps.
>> Szmigielski:
I really am a wetlands super fan, and I try to do my part in restoring our local ecosystems. As you pointed out, I live in New Jersey and work in New York. There's quite a bit of tidal and estuary ecosystems out there. And when I'm not kind of poking around in the muck, I'm just spending time there with my family and Geneviève, I know you're a huge fan of the national parks, so that's pretty similar.
>> Piché:
It is, yes. Huge fan of the national parks and it's something that we've been doing for a long time. And now we have an eight-year-old son and do the junior Ranger programs and have a great time. So I think it makes us very well-suited to the work that we, do, aside from the fact that we're also bankers. So as we prepared for this podcast it really made me think of a quote from Coca-Cola's CEO, James Quincey, and he said this at a dinner of fellow CEOs earlier this year. And he said, It seems like ESG has become a toxic topic, a toxic acronym. And he said that may very well be and I will stop using it. And I'm paraphrasing, by the way, but he also said the idea that I want to be water positive, that I want to have a circular economy on my packaging, that I want to grow our business with less sugar are all things that are good for business. Call it what you want, but they are value creating and I think that is such an important topic, which is what we want to talk about here today, which is sustainability strategies are value creating. In your client engagement, David, do you see this topic coming up?
>> Szmigielski:
Absolutely Geneviève. This is a huge keystone point in all of our engagements with our client base. A great opportunity or example of this is all of the waste heat out there in industrial processes. This is a by-product and it is an opportunity to capture that heat to generate additional electricity or additional power or additional production. And it's one that is untapped largely. And here is a great example of achieving gains not only in energy efficiency, operational efficiency, financial savings, saving on your electricity bill ultimately, but also satisfying environmental gains, reduction of emissions and the like as well.
>> Piché:
Right. And a lot of these initiatives that you've just mentioned are reducing cost for companies. They are creating margin expansion. They are attracting new customers. They are driving valuation, and all of these things are better understood now than they ever were before. Five years ago, we were not having these conversations and as a result, we as a bank are having to up-tier and improve the type of engagement that we have because our clients are more sophisticated. And I want to ask you a little bit about some of the analytical work that we're doing to support our clients.
>> Szmigielski:
Yeah. So, you know, a really great example of this type of analytical work that tries to demonstrate the value not only on the financial side, but also what are those additionalities from an environmental and social perspective is work that we're doing with our client base around their fleet electrification. So some of our clients have large corporate fleets. They might be simple vehicles that just get employees from site A to site B. To make client calls to visit other offices. Also more heavy duty infrastructure, bucket trucks and trailers and tractors and the like. How do you actually address that entire fleet as that fleet ages as that fleet needs to be replaced? And how do you do it in a way that satisfies multiple aims, not only those that are related to the energy efficiency and the fuel economy of those underlying vehicles, but also satisfying social and environmental gains all in one discussion. And so what we've developed is a tool to engage clients around the operational savings, the CapEx associated with replacement of the fleet, the life expectancy of the underlying vehicles, etc.. But also what are the emission savings associated with electrifying a fleet and how do those tie to our clients emissions and sustainability metrics? And what does this mean for our clients employee base for example, what are some of the unquantifiable but very tangible benefits to employee health and safety, as well as employee engagement at the worksite and how does this impact communities? We have really tangible examples of utility clients, for example, being able to operate longer in the communities that they serve because the vehicles are quieter.
>> Piché:
It's so interesting what you're describing because I think when we had undertaken our very first work in sustainability, we formed this group three years ago, we were looking at value creation from an equity valuation standpoint. And we found it very hard to find, and that's because equity values incorporate so many different facets that are difficult to isolate to a specific sustainability initiative. But what we have found and this what you’re describing here is that it has very tangible benefits for cash flow. And when you describe the model that you're talking about here, the methodology, you’re really talking about a CapEx spend that results in OpEx reductions in time. So we can actually start to identify a return on investment, which I think is really the way to be thinking about this going forward. And we can talk about electrification of fleets, which won a selection by the White House. So congratulations to you, David, for their EV acceleration challenge. So we're super proud of that. But that's just one form of green expenditures and CapEx. There are so many more. In the real estate space, upgrades of appliances or the installation of solar panels. And when you combine that sort of analysis, you can really start to quantify how these initiatives benefit your company. And I think what's really exciting is many companies have many sustainability initiatives and if you do have a goal in the end of reducing greenhouse gas emissions at your company, there are multiple things that you can do. And by doing this sort of green CapEx analysis, you can actually determine whether or not you know, maybe two out of the three that you wanted to do are profitable and one doesn't quite break even. Maybe it's still justification to do all three because collectively they make economic sense. So I think that's really amazing because it's a good way to drive economic value creation. But you're also amplifying the impact of your work. You know, the other part of the puzzle that you did not allude to at the end of all of that analysis, we have the capital to bring to the table, and we've innovated. You want to talk a little bit about, yeah entirely, what we have available to be able to finance fleet electrification or whatever else?
>> Szmigielski:
Yeah, we've innovated an entire toolkit of products that help serve customers where they are at in their sustainability journey, the types of investments that are right for them at that juncture, as well as the type of tenor and instrumentation that is required for each individual instrument. So in the case of fleet electrification, we have green syndicated and bilateral lease and loan solutions through Wells Fargo equipment finance, which is a really exciting opportunity for our clients not only to address their fleet electrification, but also communicate to their lenders and investors the positive work they're doing from a financial and economic perspective, from a social perspective, and certainly from an environmental perspective. And I think sustainability ultimately as it relates to integration into the financial markets, really operates quite a bit like a nutrition facts label.
>> Piché:
Right?
>> Szmigielski:
So it's a little bit like, you know, what are those economic or financial gains, maybe the calories, but also for certain stakeholders or certain consumers. If you look at a nutrition facts label, there are other things that are important than just the calories. And what we're trying to achieve is a multilayer of materiality or benefit that satisfies not only those seeking a financial or calorie return, but also the supplements and the vitamins as they require them.
>> Piché:
Yeah, that's a really good analogy because the other thing that we are seeing is that sustainability is not a one size fits all. Not every company will be adopting the exact same approaches. And so when you create these multifaceted views on sustainability strategies for companies, those companies and their stakeholders can decide whether they want to prioritize water over GHG emissions much like a consumer might prioritize you know, iron over calcium. It's, you know everybody is going to be a little bit different. So I think it's really great. And it, it really has led to innovation, which you've just talked about. We have a slew of new financing solutions that never existed before. We have new abilities to advise our clients as they look at strategic opportunities. And all of it is about value creation now. Maybe the final concept that we could bring up is that of double materiality. It’s something we hear a lot about. Double materiality can have several meanings to different stakeholders as you know. Can you give me your take, David, on what double materiality means, or the double bottom line, not in the specific context of financial and risk disclosure, which has very unique considerations, but in the broader context of what it means to companies’ business strategies and the real economy.
>> Szmigielski:
Double materiality ultimately comes down to an idea that the most successful sustainability strategies, those that have both financial economic benefits as well as environmental and social benefits that are quantifiable, and those are the ones that resonate the most with stakeholders certainly, and have the greatest impact in both of those regards. You can see this most manifest in the real estate space, of course, which is that the most energy efficient buildings or buildings with upgrades and retrofits into their performance, immediately materialize in financial savings and gains reduction of power, electricity bill, etc., but also benefits to those that occupy those buildings and certainly also the emissions reductions associated with those investments. And so we are seeing clients double down on double materiality and bring very innovative concepts to market that grow with them. We have a structure for clients called Sustainability Investment Linked Loan or Hybrid Supplement, as we call it, that essentially allow our clients to utilize the facility as they make these investment decisions over time rather than pre-planning what that aggregate investment is at time of close, allowing them to drawdown and repay a drawdown and repay. And I know that's one that you're excited about. And many of the innovations in this space maybe welcome some of your input around that as well.
>> Piché:
Yeah. And I think what you're describing is the sophistication of this work as it develops. A few years ago, all we were talking about were green bonds and that's all here was. And now we are really elevating the dialog into these really substantive strategic topics. And I think that this is where the direction of travel is going. We have to be doubling down on double materiality. As you just said, and. I think our work will follow that. I think our clients are going to be doing the same. I'm really excited about how sustainability has become value creating in the last few years, and I'm really excited about Wells Fargo's role in supporting our clients as they go down some of their own strategic journeys around sustainability. I really look forward to coming back in the future and telling you more about how the space is developing and how Wells Fargo is supporting clients. It's great to be here with you, David, and thank you for joining us.
>> Szmigielski:
Always a pleasure, Genevieve. Thanks for having me.
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